“Katharina Blum” is always on the agenda

We have talked to Ulrike Dufner whose duty as Turkey representative of the Heinrich Böll Stiftung ended just recently, about the eleven years she spent in Turkey and the foregoing adventure that brought her here.

How did you attain such an enviable level in Turkish?

Ulrike Dufner: It's so kind of you to say that. I know that my Turkish leaves a lot to be desired... I started to learn Turkish when I was 20. At university, I had many refugee friends who had fled the military coup of 12 September 1980. I had before me two options: Arabic or Turkish. I decided that Arabic was too hard.

What was your major?

At first, my majors were philosophy and history and my minor was political science. So I had to learn Latin. Later, I decided that philosophy and history were not ideal for me, and continued in political science. I learned Turkish at the Turkology department. Although I did not officially enroll in Turkish classes, I did not miss a lesson. The leftist students of the time deemed it very important to be a part of the international solidarity movement. I shared a flat with five other women, and each of us were involved in a solidarity movement: Cuba, Nicaragua... Some friends in the solidarity with Nicaragua movement learned Spanish, those in the solidarity with Palestine movement learned Arabic, and I opted for Turkish.

When was that?

Back in 1984-85... I started learning Turkish in 1985. My first visit to Turkey was in 1986-87. Back then, there was a tourism boycott due to the military coup in Turkey. Visiting Turkey was tantamount to sin. I came to learn Turkish. The Human Rights Association (IHD) had recently been established. I had heard about the association in Germany. We said “Let's meet with them and observe the trials.” Upon my arrival, I both started a Turkish course and watched the lawsuit for the left-wing group Dev-Yol in Mamak, Ankara. I was not yet fluent in Turkish but I understood more or less what was being said. We translated the first publications of IHD to German. The first concepts I learned about Turkey were coup, torture, tank, military, etc.

What images do you have in mind from the Dev-Yol trials in Mamak?

The word Mamak evokes the following for me: You take the bus to go to the court. It all resembles a military camp. Barracks. The accused are seated in the courtroom, and a cordon of soldiers separates them from the audience. Their relatives try to speak to the prisoners, but there is no way. I was young, 23 years old. I crossed my legs in the courtroom. The judge reprimanded me, saying “Tell this woman to sit up straight, otherwise we shall not proceed.” I did not understand what was being said. I had been disrespectful. Those next to me warned me. I was scared.

How long did you stay in Turkey that time?

Six weeks. I kept coming back every summer. I visited Samsun, Sinop, İzmir, Amasya, Diyarbakır, Ankara, Cappadocia, you name it... I mostly traveled alone. Usually I ran into other young travelers on the road, and reached agreements with the men: “I will translate from Turkish for you, and you will keep an eye on me so that we don't run into trouble.”

I guess you must have loved the country and the language, since you came back every year and made so much progress in Turkish. 

Of course I loved the language. I am not so sure about the country; but I did love its people. It was a period of learning for me. For instance, what was international solidarity? We, a group of young leftists in Germany, were talking about solidarity, but did not really know whether those in Turkey wanted any of our solidarity or support. How was equality to be established at the point? Could solidarity be mutual? The international solidarity we conceived of in Germany did not correspond to something in Turkey. Those coming to Turkey for international solidarity were seen here as imperialists. We did not understand that. We had come to Turkey to fight for democratization together, and to empower you. The assumption was, if a Western woman comes to Turkey she definitely wants to sleep with the local men. The leftists thought the same thing. So, we went through a mutual learning process.

What attracted you despite the adversities you had to face?

Curiosity. I was curious because Turkey was a whole different country. The lifestyle and discussions here were so different from those back in Germany. This appealed to me a lot when I was young. I was constantly learning new things. Did I like Turkey the way it was? Maybe I had not understood it then. But with time you start to learn about Turkey's history. The Turkish history we studied at the university was that written by Kemalists. It was a long time after graduation that I learned about the Armenian genocide. I had read numerous books on the foundation of the Republic, but none of them mentioned the genocide, or the events of 6-7 September for that matter.

Were you interested in Turkish literature?

In Germany, there were publishing houses which we were fond of, such as Dağyeli Yayınevi. They published the books of writers from Turkey writing in German, and then started to translate Turkish literature to German. I read Yaşar Kemal and Orhan Pamuk in German. I do not dare to read them in the original.

Who was the first Turkish author you read?

I first read an anthology of poetry published by Dağyeli... I then listened to some of those poems as songs composed by Cem Karaca... I remember reading Orhan Veli. In Germany, Nâzım Hikmet was deemed to be very important then. Ismail Beşikçi’s books had been translated and they were also important.

Cem Karaca was in exile in Germany then, had you been to one of his concerts?

I had not, since I did not have the money for it. I was a student with very limited means. On top of my classes, I had to work to make ends meet. I had no money for movies, concerts and other social activities. My parents are from the middle class, but I always lived on the verge of poverty.

What work did you do as an undergraduate?

I worked at the post office from 10 p.m. to 5 a.m. Then I would go to the university at 8 a.m. I would give private lessons to kids in the afternoons. I did cleaning work, took care of the elderly, worked at a factory, waited tables...  After the fourth semester, I moved to Berlin. It was better in Berlin; life was cheaper. I found a job at the university. I became active in politics, especially the anti-IMF movement. Meanwhile I worked for three months at the Center for Turkish Studies. I received a scholarship for my PhD and worked on my thesis for six years.

What was your doctoral thesis about?

A comparison of the political viewpoints of the young members of Welfare Party (RP) in Turkey and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. I had conducted interviews with all the Muslim Brotherhood officials who were in government before the coup in Egypt. They were students while I was writing my thesis.

In regard to today's AKP youth and Muslim Brotherhood, what has changed in the last twenty years?

There isn't much of a difference between the AKP and the Muslim Brotherhood. This affinity was also clear back then; they had connections. Both Muslim Brotherhood and Welfare Party were for economic liberalism and viewed the country as a company. But I still have trouble in fully grasping one thing: In the last two years, Erdoğan  in particular gave support to extremely radical Islamists. Such a perspective did not exist back then in the Muslim Brotherhood or in the beginnings of the AKP. However, they clearly see themselves as an Islamic trend. There are radical and moderate groups, and they consider themselves to be a whole. The Muslim Brotherhood became more radical while collaborating with the Salafists in Egypt. The same is happening in Turkey now. We could not see it coming. While I was writing my thesis, radical Islamists were very active in Egypt. They had tried to kill tourists. I spoke with radical Islamists, too. They refused to speak to a young woman in a room. Muslim Brothers were a bit different; a bit conventional but more moderate. When Muslim Brothers and Salafists came to power after the uprising in Egypt, it turned out to be a very bad coalition. Salafists got the chance to put pressure on the Muslim Brothers, who started to pursue a political line based on Islam. I did not expect that. Nor did I expect Erdoğan to view and present himself as a new sultan or a second Atatürk.

Had you seen any precursors of this while studying Welfare Party youth?

There had always a been a difference between the Welfare youth and the youth in Egypt. You can see that difference today in Mazlum-Der. The Welfare youth in Istanbul was more radical, those in Ankara more moderate. Those in Egypt were more sophisticated, and knew about Islamic political theories and literature. Those in Turkey did not. The writers most read in Turkey were Ali Bulaç and Abdurrahman Dilipak. Those were the trendy pundits. Ali Bulaç’s thesis about the Constitution of Medina was hotly debated. Indeed, that's the path they are trying to take right now.

How did you interpret AKP's coming to power in 2002?

I came to Turkey in January 2004. Back then, everyone I knew via the Heinrich Böll Stiftung Turkey Representation was very hopeful. It was like a spring of reform. People including me thought that it was the beginning of a process of reforms. Talks for accession to EU started in 2005. This energized the society. It might have been naïve, but we thought that there would always be progress in terms of democracy and that crucial steps would be taken in 10 to 20 years.

When did you start to lose hope?

In 2007. Hrant Dink was killed that year. The Republic Protests (Cumhuriyet Mitingleri) were held. The so-called e-coup was carried out. That's when I understood that this process was not stable at all. There was also a nationalist backlash against foreigners. For instance, at the Heinrich Böll Stiftung Turkey Representation we received numerous threats. The breaking point was 2007, but still we wanted to remain hopeful and move ahead despite problems. We first thought that the Ergenekon Trials were positive. We were not 100% sure about the 2010 referendum. However, the decline started in 2010-2012. In 2011, Ahmet Şık and Nedim Şener were prisoned for the books they penned. Some sections of the civil society started to grasp the situation only then. Those beside us used to say, “yes, but...” What really bothered me during the debates of constitutional reform was to see conflicts erupt among my close friends. They could not share the same table anymore. According to your vote in the referendum, you would be stigmatized as an AKP supporter or a Kemalist. Holding the opposite view meant betrayal.  

Did the Gezi uprising take you by surprise?

I did not expect it at all. Looking back, however, I realize that it could have been foreseen. Maybe not the immense popular support though. But we had already witnessed mass movements in the Black Sea region against the construction of hydroelectric power plants.

What was your impression about Gezi?

I am not sure how historical Gezi is, or whether we will still talk about it twenty years later. I think we tend to exaggerate it today, since we are still under its influence. Gezi was a very important social gathering at the time, but we very rapidly destroyed that togetherness. I think that the perspective “Let us create a joint resistance movement without forgetting our differences” does not exist anymore in today's Turkey. We are back to the perspective “I am different from you, and do not want to sit at the same table with you.” The Heinrich Böll Stiftung Turkey Representation decided to bring together different environmentalist movements and listed to their views. It was not possible. Environmentalists cannot sit around the same table. In the feminist movement, too, we emphasize our differences more than our similarities. I am not very hopeful.

It has been eleven years since your arrival in Turkey in 2004. What social and cultural changes did you observe in this period?

AKP’s rise and long stay in power has led to a serious rise in conservatism. I can see it in daily life. Sometimes it gives me a laugh, because Erdoğanists say exactly what I heard from Welfare Party youth during my research as a student. For instance, a woman cannot laugh out loud. That's what the Welfare youth said all the time. Arınç repeated the same phrase in recent months. After they became ideologically dominant, their old thoughts resurfaced. Another observation about rising conservatism: Now I constantly need to defend myself for not having a kid. It wasn't like this eleven years ago, and no one would dare ask that so openly. I never place myself in a defensive position on any issue. But now you know that the other side has the power. Another change—the idea that Germans are highly disciplined and hard-working still exists; however, it is not as exaggerated as much as it used to be.

May this self-confidence has a nationalist aspect?

It even has an aggressive aspect: “If we want, we can regain our imperial force.” Germans also have a chauvinist side. I think there is a very peculiar relationship between Turkey and Germany. Islamophobia does exist in Germany. If an AKP supporter wants to shoot a German, he can always find a reason. In Germany today, all racist and chauvinistic tendencies are based on Islam and xenophobia is reinterpreted as Islamophobia.

In 2003, before your arrival to Turkey, how was the panorama in Germany?

Islamophobia existed, but they saw some hope in Erdoğan, who represented moderate Islam. When Erdoğan started to go crazy, Germany started to distance itself from him. Today, parallel to the rise of ISIL, Muslims have started being perceived as terrorists.

Did the appearance and rapid strengthening of ISIL surprise you?

Al Nusra already existed in Syria. Among those supporting the Syrian opposition now, Muslim Brothers are the most moderate. There are constant attacks by radical Islamists in Iraq. The dissidents in Syria were not sure about their own power, and in a historical mistake, waited for Western support, which played into the hands of radical Islamists. When opposition groups appeared in Syria, the “Arab Spring,” which started in Egypt, had already started to resemble an autumn. The Libyan example had not gone well. Why did the Syrian opposition wait for the West to support and arm it? I keep asking myself this question.

How do you see the trajectory of the Kurdish movement?

I started to learn about the Kurdish question in early 1990s. As part of the international solidarity movement, we visited Diyarbakır twice during Newroz, in 1991 and 1993. We went to Diyarbakır, Nusaybin and Cizre. There was a curfew. The National intelligence (MIT) officials and undercover police were in the hotel lobby, and there were tanks in every corner in Diyarbakır. That's how I first saw Diyarbakır. In this period, what draws my attention most is the Kurdish movement's policy about women and gender. It is incredible. Despite the AKP's demand that all families have three children and rampant conservatism, Kurdish women have risen as a political force and offer a totally different alternative.

What is your opinion of the support for Selahattin Demirtaş in presidential elections and HDP’s chances to surpass the electoral threshold in general elections?

HDP will get at least 15%; 20% may be too high, but even 18% is possible. Demirtaş reminded Turkish society what politics is. In his campaign for presidency, he did not adopt an aggressive style, did not view his opponents as enemies. He presented himself as a sharp, quick-witted person who is seriously trying to engage in politics. In Turkey, politics is viewed by most as incivility. MPs fight in the parliament, use a coarse male language... Politics is when you are corrupt, have a strong network which will protect you from getting busted, and get rich. Then Demirtaş comes along and says, “Sorry, but politics is something else.” I think this had an immense impact. The Alevi in Germany are normally close to the CHP; for the first time, they have announced that they will vote for the HDP. The Heinrich Böll Turkey Representation is conducting a research on local government and gender policy. We want to understand how HDP has managed to create a social dynamism which reaches even the remotest villages. The biggest disappointment is the June Movement. Although they are a group which claims to represent the legacy of Gezi, they do not reflect the views of those who were active in Gezi as far as I know. I believe that Turkey's left has yet to come to terms with the past.

A large sector of the left is part of the HDP... Some people outside the party are giving their support.

I don't know. One argument put forth during and after Gezi was “Kurds did not support us; they abandoned us”... The left sometimes puts it as directly as this: “Kurds are not the only victims of this republic; we also suffered from torture.” This is a widespread opinion. That is one reason why the Kurdish and Turkish left cannot act together.

Going back to 2004, how did you come to Turkey as Heinrich Böll Stiftung Turkey Representative?

Right before that, I was working at the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs. In the two years I worked there, the Iraq War broke up and the Germans were not involved. Germany was ruled by a coalition between Greens and Social Democrats. I was appointed to the Iraq Working Group at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on behalf of the Turkey desk. There were officials from the Ministries of Defense and Interior as well as people from the intelligence service. It was very interesting. The debates were eye-opening for me. However, two years on, I realized that I did not want to continue with it. I was not made to become a diplomat. Before the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, I had worked in the party group of the Greens. I applied to Heinrich Böll Stiftung because it was close to the Greens. This job suited me fine, since I was interested in Turkey and the Middle East during my entire education and professional life.

You said, “My parents are from the middle class, but I always lived on the verge of poverty.” What is your family like?

It is an interesting family. Some of my family members were Nazis, some were communists. The sister of my mother's father was a Nazi until his last breath! My mother's father's father was a communist. My mother's father enters Hitler's work programme as an unemployed person, and travels by bike to Baden Württemberg. There, he works as a doorman and meets my mother's mother. In the beginning of the war, he comess into contact with Nazis. They get impoverished and he joins the war. He comes back in 1946. They are very poor and he starts to beg... They experience the entire post-war trauma. That's the family I come from. My grandfather's sister worked in cleaning and remained a Nazi her entire life.

How did they justify it to themselves?

They said “We did not know about the Holocaust. (...) Hitler was good, he created jobs.” When I was 15, 16, in a visit to my grandmother and grandfather, I had said, “All soldiers are killers” without giving a thought about my grandfather's past. My grandfather started to cry: “You do not know what you are talking about...” Until the day he died, he cried whenever he talked about his war memories. When my grandfather went to war, my grandmother was left with two young children. She waged another war to make ends meet.

What kind of a relation does German society have to its history?

There is a sentiment of guilt. Maybe this sentiment is not shared by the new generation. We could not believe that our grandfathers could have done any of this. That is because we loved them, grew up in their laps. Our grandparents were our loved ones, who loved us back. They made us feel great, did good deeds. You just could not accept the fact that they are Nazis. The generation that followed us did not meet people who had a Nazi past.

Which are your favorite Heinrich Böll novels?

My favorite novel of his is Katharina Blum. The Lost Honour of Katharina Blum is always on the agenda. Then comes “And where were you, Adam?” But my favorite writer is Oskar Maria Graf. I read all of his books. In his novels, he talks about the rise of Nazism through the 1920s and 1930s. He is a great author, a true cornerstone of German literature. For example his novel Anton Sittinger should be read by all students in Germany, if you ask me.

Böll was a Catholic existentialist and a founder of Green Party. How did you come to join the Greens?

I took part in two movements: the women's movement and the peace movement. I still feel closest to these two. I was within the anti-nuclear movement, too, but did not define myself as an environmentalist. Back then, I was a member of the organization called Communist Union in Western Germany. Some of its members joined the Greens, some remained outside. I did not become a member of the Greens. I was active in the left wing of the Greens, because I feel close to them.

How did you experience the German reunification?

I was in Berlin at the time. My organization opposed the reunification. We were worried. We protested a possible return to the German Reich.

Did you travel to East Germany?

We used to go there to buy cheap versions of Marx's books and met with groups such as the New Forum. We wanted to create a leftwing alternative. East German opposition groups said, “We first want freedom.” Looking back now, I understand them; however, the predominant mood then was that we could not cooperate with them. We kept our distance to them. The Green Party, however, had a more organic relationship to the Eastern German opposition.

As someone who has lived for eleven years in Turkey and been at the Heinrich Böll Stiftung, what is your evaluation as this chapter of your life draws to a close?

Looking on the full side of the glass, there has been considerable progress in many issues in these eleven years. For instance, coming to terms with the past. Now one can use the word genocide without much of a problem. I remember the first time I came to the Heinrich Böll Stiftung. I had told my friends in the head office “Please do not use the word genocide, I do not want to end up in jail.” In the Kurdish question, too, had I said eleven years ago that there were possibilities of a peaceful settlement, it would create an uproar in certain circles. Even being able to discuss the Kurdish question and think that HDP might get 15 to 20 percent of the votes mark an incredible change. I don't see much of a progress in the women's question. It has become a more debated topic in an ideological sense; however, one cannot talk of a social awakening.

How do you see the future of AKP?

It is too early to say. However, this period reminds me of the AKP’s foundation. In fact, the AKP's mission is at a dead end, stuck. The movement needs rejuvenation. This rejuvenation will either come from the inside—which is a small possibility—or a new party will be created. The second option is more realistic, but we don't know when that will happen.